A conversation with Liz Maker
Transcript from episode nine of the Good Folk podcast.
Paying subscribers to Good Folk receive access to the full transcripts of the Good Folk Podcast. All subscribers can listen to the podcast here. If you would like to become a paying subscriber, you can do so here.
SPENCER GEORGE: Hello, folks. This is Spencer George and you're listening to the Good Folk Podcast. If we think of ourselves as flowers, what does it look like to bloom? Does a flower grow on its own? Or does it need love and light and care to truly blossom? And what comes after the bloom?
Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Liz Maker, a full time landscaper and part-time florist living in coastal North Carolina, in conversation with myself and Victoria Landers, our podcast producer. Liz started their floral business After The Bloom in the fall of 2020 after receiving much community support to help fund their top surgery.
This success sparked a desire to help other members of the gender-expansive community on their gender journey. Through After The Bloom. Liz has bought binders, helped pay tuition, and most recently ran a gender-affirming surgery campaign which involved a GoFundMe and community-wide raffle. Liz is transgender non-binary, but feels most connected to the word gender-queer. Liz uses they/them pronouns, Colgate toothpaste and a Nissan Frontier.
As a queer Southerner, I spend a lot of time thinking about the role I play in this place. I never got to see people I identified with find joy in the places where their roots grow. To really push this language, I never got to see them bloom. Most of the narratives of queerness I saw here involved leaving, heading off to somewhere where community could be cultivated and grown—somewhere else.
But for better or for worse, I am someone who craves roots. I want somewhere to call my own and somewhere to thrive in, and I want to be able to do that in the places I love, the soil that has nourished me from the start. We talk about leaving your hometown as if it is something we should all want. But for many of us, learning how to be who we are in the places that have seen us through every stage of growth is the most beautiful thing imaginable. And coming back to plant the seeds for what you did not have growing up is one of the most radical and transformative things you can do.
I love this conversation, and I love the work that Liz is doing. It is important and necessary and is, in my eyes, the true essence of what community building looks like: putting yourself out there to help keep the ground where you are rich and watered and thriving. If we think of community as a garden, no one succeeds when only one plant grows tall. We have to learn to live together. We have to learn to be what we needed when we might have thought we were the only plant for miles, because we never know what is growing beneath the surface. I hope you enjoy this conversation.
VICTORIA LANDERS: We just want to make it smooth, fun, funky fresh. So my first question for you is, hello, who are you? And what is After The Bloom?
LIZ MAKER: I'm Liz. I am transgender non-binary, but genderqueer is, like, my favorite word to describe that. After The Bloom is a dried floral business that I started, like, a year and a half ago in response to the overwhelming support that I got from stickers that I sold to fund my own top surgery. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, what a beautiful thing to be a part of. I need to be a part of this for other people. And so I do dried floral arrangements. I do prints, stickers. And then I donate part of all of the sales directly to the gender-expansive community. I helped pay tuition, that was really cool. Well, part of tuition, not like a whole tuition. I've bought binders for people. And just most recently, I did a big top surgery campaign for a friend that I met in a trans and non-binary support group here. And so far, we've been able to raise, like, $1,600. So I think that's pretty cool. But, yeah, that's really what After The Bloom is about. Usually, like, dried flowers, stuff that I love, to be a presence in the trans community here.
VL: How did you land on dried flowers? I always think of flowers, I think of fresh floral arrangements. So why dried? I think that's so neat.
LM: I picked dried, honestly, because it was a safe bet. They last longer. It's low maintenance. It was something that I could get started with immediately and not have to worry about losing money and getting too much product or not having enough. So that's why I picked dried flowers. But I have a big background in agriculture. I have a degree in agriculture from Texas Tech, and I've worked various farm jobs, landscaping jobs, and the job I had before this was in Colorado, and my boss there, like, really had a love of flowers. And that was, like, the first time I even thought flowers were a part of agriculture. I know that sounds silly, but all of my work before that had just been with big field crops and, like, landscaping suburbs. But I really fell in love with the flower work, and he just would make bouquets, and he was so happy, and I was like, that is so happy. I'm going to do that. So I did.
VL: And you're a full time landscaper. As an artist, I always think of painting or writing or photography. I think agriculture is very much of an art, but I never really thought more beyond it. So what got you into agriculture? How did you find yourself being a full time landscaper?
LM: Well, actually, I graduated high school, I went to Florida State for a year and a half, and I was studying psychology, and I just was… I was healing from a lot of high school trauma, and I was realizing in all these psych classes that I just was trying to diagnose myself the whole time, and it was awful. And I was like, and I'm so interested in this, but this is not sustainable for my mental health. And so I took a year off for medical leave. I moved back home, and then I ended up deciding I wanted to transfer to Texas Tech. But I picked agriculture, literally, because I was like, I like climbing trees, and I want to be outside. And I just tried to make it really simple. Like, I remember sitting on my grandma's couch and thinking, at your core, what do you like doing? And it was like, I like climbing trees. And I was like, agriculture. That's really what did it.
VL: Oh, I love that. My high school environment was very much a place where parents decided their kid’s majors. Like, you talk to your kids like, oh, my dad wants me to be a lawyer, so I'm going to be a lawyer. And then I recently reconnected with someone I went to high school with who had that kind of upbringing, and they were like, yeah, I mean, it's fine. I don't love my job, but I had to do it. And I think this gets lost in translation of people do what they think they're supposed to do or bring in the money or make the parents proud. But then I think what we should really go into is, like, what would my inner child want?
There’s this whole renaissance of people healing their inner child or dressing the way their inner child wanted to. So I love that in, like, this time of your life, going, okay, I need to find something, because currently working isn't working. I need to reassess my situation. You're like, I just want to climb trees.
LM: Yeah, I wish all my decisions up until then could have been based on something as simple and joyful as that.
VL: Yeah, it's hard. And like you said, you kind of have to jump through all those mental loops. In high school, usually there's a number of people where you either are lucky enough to have therapy throughout it, and then your therapist is like, hey, let's maybe dissect that, or it's something you kind of, like, push down. You're like, no, that is for future me to worry about. Until I get there, it's going to be fine, and it's not going to control any of my decision making whatsoever. But it likes to kind of seep in and find its way to contaminate things, absolutely. So I love that you had that conversation with yourself. I think everyone does sooner or later in life.
LM: Yeah, I honestly didn't start having those conversations with myself until I actually left my hometown and went to college and realized, like, holy crap, there's so many other types of people out in this world. And when you're away from your home, you get to have those moments where you're like, you're reflecting. It's easier to reflect on something when you're not in it. So I'm out, like, in my first apartment, and then I'm thinking of all the stuff that I did as a child and reflecting on that. You don't have to push those feelings or thoughts down anymore. And it's so much freer to just be.
VL: Yeah. Hindsight is 20/20. It's so much easier to view on all the things after the fact, looking back on everything and being like, oh, wow, that was kind of messed up in a lot of ways that I didn't realize. It was kind of messing with my psyche.
So it sounds like agriculture has been very healing. And then you have brought this sense of your love for flowers and your love for nature to help heal others in their queer identity journey. Where would you like for After The Bloom to go? Do you want to expand? Do you want to be a full time business owner? Where do you see this project going? Because clearly it's doing a lot for so many people. You've touched many people's lives in many different ways through florals.
LM: To be honest, I have no idea. I really don't. It's hard to think about because I really love my full time job. I'm the head of the flower department for a landscaping company, so I get to do flower stuff at work. And I have opportunities there to grow and learn more and maybe get into, like, the landscape architecture part of it. So I really love that. And obviously After The Bloom is my biggest passion. When I'm out at a market and I see kids who, like, they have, like, a little rainbow bracelet on, and you can tell, and they're just, like, looking at your prints that say, like, a little of both or mostly neither, and they're looking at it, and they're like, oh, my God, mom, look at this. Look how cool this is.
And you know that they saw themselves in something that you're doing. It's just so fulfilling. And so I have so much passion for that, and I want that to grow. And I think eventually it would be so great if I had my own shop. I would love After The Bloom to be— I thought if I did have a shop, I would literally just want to call it, like, After The Bloom: The Place. And it would just be like, yeah, obviously, like, dried flowers. I could have meetings with wedding clients there. But then it would just be a safe space. I would just love people to, like, come hang out. I want a wall that has binders that people can just try on, figure out what that feels like. I also take in a bunch of old binders and try to rehome them. It's hard to order a binder when you like, you've never— that's not in a store anywhere. How do you know? There's only so much you can read online about it. So I think having a place like that would be really important.
So if I could keep doing my full time job, but also somehow be full-time After The Bloom, that would be ideal. But I know eventually I'll kind of have to figure that out, and what's going to take the majority of my time. But right now I'm just trying to take it day by day.
VL: Safe spaces are so deeply important, I think, especially in queer communities where it feels like they're lacking or they're not being used as intended. I have so many thoughts and and I need to gather them together for a second. Because what you said about the kids, like seeing themselves in your art, I think that's the best part of being an artist is just making that personal connection. I think one of the things when you're in school— when I was in school for photography, the big thing was to get your stuff in a museum and to have it big and framed in gold behind glass with a little plaque of the about info. And that never resonated with me because I felt like I couldn't really see the reaction or see the connection with the people. It felt like something that was.. not privileged, but something that was to be seen for people that could only access certain parts. Not everyone has access to museums, and not every place has museums.
LM: Yeah, absolutely.
VL: I think that more personal interaction between the artist and the art and the viewer is so much more meaningful. Because then you can see, like, the first time reaction. Like, I see myself in that. Oh, my gosh, look at this. I think the best feeling in the world is when you're like, yeah, I'm doing this. I'm doing something right. I'm on the right path. Like, I'm finding it out.
LM: Yeah. Wow.
VL: So to transition a little bit, I was definitely stalking your Instagram page, and I saw you mentioned that there is a lot of waste in the agriculture and landscape community, which I never thought about. I did not even think that would be a thing, because it’s nature dealing with nature. Can you explain what that is exactly, or, like, how that happens?
LM: I'm definitely not the most knowledgeable of that specific subject, but I just know a lot of flowers are grown. They're obviously grown in warmer climates like South America. And then you're shipping them so far, especially with fresh flowers, and everything is just wrapped in so much plastic to preserve it. And so that's just where I was coming from. I do grow some of the flowers myself and dry them myself, but I also search to look for other flower farms in North Carolina that I could work with. I just like cutting out all of that travel, a little bit less plastic, just like junk, just stuff we don't need, and then always trying to reuse as much of the stuff that I can and then recycling the rest.
SG: So Liz, I have a couple of questions based on all of this. I think it's fascinating. I currently am a Teacher’s Assistant for a Southern Studies course, and we've been talking a lot about the agricultural history of the South and of North Carolina, specifically. I'm also really interested in Florida, which is a very unique part of the south. We actually had a podcast a couple of episodes back with Dacia where we were talking specifically about Florida's role. So much unique agriculture there. Then you go to Texas, also another very unique agricultural region. They all have these stereotypes associated with them.
What brought you to North Carolina? You are in Wilmington currently, which is coastal. Could you tell us a little bit about that transition of Florida to Texas to North Carolina, and some of the differences you've noticed working in all these different spaces?
LM: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I grew up in Florida from kindergarten through the year and a half of college that I was talking about. And then, yeah, I went to Texas, but I also lived in Hawaii for three months doing agriculture stuff, and then Colorado for a year doing agriculture stuff.
It's just so different everywhere. But what brought me back, or what brought me to North Carolina was— well, my girlfriend, who I met in Hawaii, who's now my fiance, she was my tent mate for this internship we were doing on an organic farm. I was doing organic AG and tropical horticulture, and she was doing the farm to table portion. And I just landed off the plane, gotten to the farm. I was so out of it. She was the first person I saw and was like, hey, do you want to be my tent mate? And I was like, for sure, why not?
But she's from North Carolina, and so after the internship, she moved back to North Carolina. I moved back to Texas for a little bit, and then she came over to Colorado with me while I was there for a year. And then after that, I was like, well, I guess I'm just coming back to North Carolina with you. I grew up in Florida, and I love the coast. We had just been in the freezing cold mountains, and we wanted coastal living again. We both feel, I think, most at home when we're by the ocean, and so that's why we picked here. And her sister had gone to UNCW, so we visited her once and really liked the place. And then, yeah, we moved here and just decided to stay. She just graduated. We just really love this place. There's something about it.
SG: As somebody who also grew up in the Coastal South, I absolutely agree with you. And I also just have to say, as someone who used to work at summer camp and spend a lot of time camping with random people, you're living the dream in that you meet your fiance doing this. Seriously, like, what an amazing story.
LM: It’s so cool.
SG: Yeah. I'm both so happy for you and congratulations, and also deeply envious.
LM: It’s a good story!
SG: Yes. I love hearing you talk about this special place that North Carolina holds and that you can't exactly put a finger on what it is. And Victoria and I have talked about this so much. Both of us have roots in the Carolinas, and sometimes we drive around and we look at each other and we go, I don't know what it is about her, but she's got something over me.
I think this is a really common experience among people here. Whether you're at the coast, you're in the mountains, and even in the Piedmont, we have this too, but that feeling of where you kind of look around and you're like, I almost can't believe this is real. And I almost can't believe that I get to be here and I get to do this, and I don't know what it is, but there really is something special that tends to root people to this place.
It makes me sad when you talk to people outside of the South that don't really get that. And of course they're not going to get that— maybe they've never been here. But because they've never been here, are going to project all of these stereotypes and all of these associations and not even really give it a chance.
I talk often in a lot of my own work about this. Like, the South has the largest queer population of anywhere in the country. Almost double.
LM: Does it?
SG: It does. So the Northeast is 19%. The South is either 35% or 37%, I can’t remember, but it's the highest of anywhere in the country. And that's something that is not talked about. We have a lot here, not only in the vast agricultural landscape, in the beauty of the place, but also in the people. Part of why we created Good Folk was because we really wanted to tell these stories. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your own experience with North Carolina. Is this home for you? Is this somewhere you really think you might stay? And what has that experience been like?
LM: Well, we just bought a house, so that's cool. Lots of big life changes going on, like the span of three months. So we're going to be here for a good while. I don't see us moving anywhere else anytime soon. I think the dream… we both love Hawaii. We fell in love there. I proposed there when we went back on our five year anniversary. There's a feeling there that I've just never felt before. The people really do care about the land, and it's a very spiritual experience.
I don't think we'll be here forever, but I think this is absolutely where I should be right now. Wilmington has such a good sense of community. I don't think I've ever lived in a place before that even had a trans and non-binary support group. And so just having that is really special. In other places I've lived, I feel like it's like walking down the street, like holding your partner's hand, you get some weird looks, and that hasn't happened here. It is very queer. Maybe that's why it feels more like home.
SG: Well, I feel like a lot of that kind of what you're getting at is maybe home is about community.
LM: Absolutely.
SG: And that's something I feel very deeply. I've lived in a lot of places in the last few years. I think I've moved every year for the last seven or eight years. And I keep looking for this metaphorical home and imagining that when I get to the right place or the right city or the right apartment, it's just going to feel like home. And I'm just going to know and I'm going to be like, I never want to leave.
One thing that has been both really difficult and really interesting about coming back to North Carolina and deciding to put down roots here is that it didn't immediately feel like home in the way I always thought it would, which is that I grew up here and moved away and then coming back, I was like, yeah, this is my home. And it still has taken time to put down those roots and find that community.
I've noticed the last few years— I've been back almost three years now— it did not feel like home until I started to find community. And that community did not happen immediately, as it should not, I believe. But I think we get a lot of misconceptions that, oh, yeah, if you're in the right place and you're doing the right thing, that community is just going to fall into place. And sometimes it does. But it really takes time to put down roots. To bring it back to plants and agriculture, no tree is going to blossom and bloom overnight. Roots are like seedlings. And I think that's something that's really hard to talk about. I don't want it to come across as negative because I'm not saying that you're never going to find your community, but you can't ever expect it to just immediately happen. But I do think that when that community does start to form, if you're willing to wait it out and feel it out and let it grow, that is what leads places to really feeling like home.
LM: Oh, absolutely.
SG: And that community can be found anywhere, but there are places that maybe have it more than others.
I think when you're coming into yourself and you're really figuring out who you are and you're being—or at least trying to be— the most authentic version of you and the most true version of you, that community, it's just magnetic. It's definitely connecting and making yourself vulnerable. It shows the good in people. And it's so much easier to find that community now that I feel like the community knows who I am and what I stand for.
LM: Honestly, I started to get that sense of community here when I did just release on Instagram and other social media about like, hey, I made these stickers. They're going to fund my top surgery, if you want to buy some or donate. You know, like, please do.
I think when you're coming into yourself and you're really figuring out who you are and you're being—or at least trying to be— the most authentic version of you and the most true version of you, that community, it's just magnetic. It's definitely connecting and making yourself vulnerable. It shows the good in people. And it's so much easier to find that community now that I feel like the community knows who I am and what I stand for. And it's made all the difference. Like, the friends I've made from it. It's been so rewarding.
SG: I think everything about what you said is beautiful and poignant. One thing that really stands out to me is this idea that you had to put yourself out there to find that community. You kind of had to be like, I'm just going to do this thing and I'm going to see what happens.
We talk about this a lot on the podcast with creative pursuits of, it's so easy to get yourself in the mindset of, what if nobody likes it? What if nobody responds? I think I talked about starting a podcast for a year before we finally just did it. And sometimes the best advice is just to do it and trust that if you're doing the thing that you believe in and you feel passionate about, even if you think nobody's going to care and nobody's going to listen, the likelihood is that there are other people out there who will and do, and they will find you, and that community will come.
It might not happen overnight, it might not happen through one Instagram post, but sometimes the key to community is putting yourself out there and showing up as who you are, because you can't find authentic community if you're not being authentic to yourself.
LM: Right. Yeah, it's not possible.